At a low PH, niacinamide and L-ascorbic acid can turn aqueous solutions yellow.
These days, while it’s (more) common knowledge that acidic compounds like hydroxy acids should not be used with retinol, the interaction between two other prominent and well-studied compounds: niacinamide and L-ascorbic acid, is rarely discussed. Ironically, along with hydroxy acids and retinoids, these two compounds to a great extent constitute and represent four of the five main classes of ingredients that should be included in everyone’s ideal skin care routine; the fifth class being sunscreen of course!
I’m surprised that this interaction hasn’t gotten more press! Therefore, let’s dive right in.
What Exactly Is This interaction?
L-ascorbic acid or vitamin C, requires a pH of less than 3.5 in order to penetrate the skin, which is very close to the 3.8 pH value where maximum complexation occurs between itself and niacinamide.
L-ascorbic acid is the naturally-occurring form of vitamin C, while niacinamide is the –amide form of niacin or vitamin B3 as discussed in a previous post. When mixed together in aqueous solutions (since both are water-soluble vitamins), they form a 1:1 complex that turns the solution yellow, rendering both compounds useless. This complexation may be the result of a donor-acceptor interaction between L-ascorbic acid (donor) and niacinamide (acceptor), which may be similar to the interaction that occurs between tryptophan and niacinamide.
Furthermore, in the presence of UV light and oxygen, which seems likely since antioxidants (such L-ascorbic acid and niacinamide) are frequently and complementarily used with sunscreens to enhance UV protection (and since oxygen is everywhere), the two compounds may even generate the very reactive hydrogen peroxide compound through a 4-step chain reaction.
Now, the amount of complexation is pH dependent, with the maximum value occurring at a pH of 3.8. And since L-ascorbic acid requires a pH of 3.5 or lower in order to be protonated and absorbed into the skin, the likelihood of this interaction occurring and its consequent impacts are significant.
So don’t mix the two compounds!
Does This Occur with Vitamin C Derivatives?
In the presence of UV light, niacinamide and L-ascorbic acid can form hydrogen peroxide, a known pro-oxidative compound.
Most if not all vitamin C derivatives such as ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, and ascorbyl glucoside, have to convert to L-ascorbic acid in order to have vitamin effects on the skin. This conversion process takes place after the derivates have penetrated into the skin. (Wouldn’t it be nice if they converted in the bottle?!) And because this conversion takes place within the skin, the pH of the surrounding solution or environment is no longer very low. However, the pH of skin is still acidic.
Therefore, interactions between any converted L-ascorbic acid and niacinamide are still possible. Keep in mind that the rates of conversion and penetration of the various derivatives can vary drastically, meaning that some may be more prone to complexation than others.
Fortunately, the pro-oxidative tendencies of hydrogen peroxide can be ignored in this scenario, since its formation is not possible in the absence of UV light.
So What Should I Do?
I think the more appropriate question is, “What should I NOT do?”
Clearly, it is my recommendation to NOT use niacinamide and L-ascorbic acid together since even in the absence of UV light, it would have an overall negative effect compared to when the two compounds are used separately. In the presence of UV light, the two compounds can form the pro-oxidative ROS-generator hydrogen peroxide, in addition to the 1:1 complex discussed above.
And while this interaction with niacinamide was only documented with L-ascorbic acid, it seems logical to suggest that it may also occur (albeit to much lesser extent) with vitamin C derivatives since they convert to L-ascorbic acid after penetrating into the skin. However, the amount of the 1:1 complex forming in these cases involving vitamin C derivatives is likely irrelevant.
Now, if you feel compelled and that you MUST use these two compounds together, try to use them at nighttime and/or wait 30 minutes between application to allow for the pH of the skin to return to its (more) natural state.
I hope this was a fun post and feel free to ask any questions down below or on my blog! And if you’ve been using both of these compounds together, don’t be afraid to share your (old) routine!
About Author
John Su describes himself as eccentric—you might find him having a conversation with himself. He’s a stickler for accuracy, so you might find him correcting one thing or another! His goal is to answer questions and provide unbiased, meaningful, and insightful information when it comes to skin care. His underlying motivations stem from a need to inform people who have doubts, questions, or even prayers for solutions to their problems. He has his own skin care blog, The Triple Helixian.
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John Su
@France
First comment:
It is OK to use glycolic acid during the daytime. However, it is preferred for evening use, just because it does slightly increase the skin’s sensitivity to the sun. I mentioned this in my hydroxy acids series, specifically in part III. Have a read if you’re interested:
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/05/10/hydroxy-acids-part-iii-common-misconceptions-of-hydroxy-acids/
But considering the antioxidants and sunscreen, this slight increase in sensitivity shouldn’t have too large of an impact. I too only use glycolic acid at nighttime, but for Nook, I just didn’t want to change her routine too much. Is Nook even a girl’s name? Lol. Anyways… moving on.
It’s not that niacinamide CAN’T be used below a pH of 5, it’s just that that some of it may convert to nicotinic acid, which may result in some redness and flushing. However, I think that the 5-7 pH range was given ith the idea of “better safe than sorry” in mind. But in reality, it has little relevance. For example, this study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jps.2600510710/abstract, indicates that the MINIMUM conversion rate happens when the pH is between 4 and 6. So, glycolic acid products are typically formulated between pHs of 3 and 4. And waiting 30 minutes after application (something that I recommended for all acidic products), should take care of this interaction. And from personal experience (I use a glycolic and/or salicylic acid product at nighttime, wait 30+ minutes, then apply a niacinamide product) I have never experienced noticeable skin flushing, which suggests that no significant amount of nicotinic acid was formed.
Does that make sense?
As for your routine: You already know that I’d would prefer for you to use a non-niacinamide sunscreen, but hey, it’s completely your choice! It’s still way better than using no sunscreen. The 30 minutes wait time may theoretically reduce the complexation interaction between L-ascorbic acid and niacinamide, but that’s just it. We don’t know; can only hope for the best.
But the rest of your routine seems fine.
Second comment:
Relax! Don’t freak out. While the half life of vitamin C is 4 days, you have to remember that measurement is theoretical and in the absence of things that degrade it: for example sunlight, oxidation processes that occur all the time in the skin, and other sources of free radical generation. So the vitamin C content in your skin doesn’t stay static and at the same level in real-life scenarios because it’s constantly being used up. I mean you want to protect your skin as much as possible, right? So it makes absolutely no sense to only apply vitamin C every 4 days. It’s a ridiculous notion.
As for using glycolic acid with L-ascorbic acid, I have no idea why Dr. Bailey would say that. There is absolutely no documentation that supports her claim. Furthermore, when she responds to the various people asking her about it, she doesn’t show any evidence nor explain WHY they can’t be used together. I can think of no reason why they can’t be used together, except for the fact that some glycolic acid products are formulated with a pH above 3.5; they don’t typically go above 4.0 however. Now, a pH of 3.5 or less is recommended for L-ascorbic acid to properly penetrate into the skin. However, that number isn’t absolute. The diction makes it sound like a product with a pH of like 3.51 would be completely useless. And that’s not true at all. L-ascorbic acid is like any acid; it obeys all the same rules. Not to get too much into detail, just know that L-ascorbic acid can definitely be used with glycolic acid. I mean, L-ascorbic acid’s pKa is 4.17, while glycolic acid’s is actually lower: 3.83. I’ll definitely be doing a complete post on this in the near future. I may make it a two part series; we’ll see.
But in the meantime, here are two brief examples to ease your mind: Both the two phrases that Dr. Bailey quotes: “Vitamin C has a half-life of 4 days” and “L-ascorbic acid requires a pH of 3.5 or less to penetrate the skin” are from studies done by the people behind the brand Skinceuticals. Here’s one of their studies: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v125/n4/full/5603565a.html. Now, if L-ascorbic acid isn’t compatible with glycolic acid, why in the WORLD would Skinceuticals include a product that contains BOTH ingredients?! http://www.dermstore.com/product_C+++AHA_1911.htm Clearly, they can be used together.
Finally, as for the niacinamide, just try not to use it together with L-ascorbic acid. Forget the half-life in 4 days thing with L-ascorbic acid. It has no significant relevance.
I hope that helps!
John Su
@Berk
Thank you very much! I actually answered your question about the half-life issue in my response to France right above. Make sure to read that.
And no, I would not recommend applying Vitamin C every other day. And if you like the EltaMD, check out the PCA skin dupe I recommended. The two products are virtually identical.
Finally, I wish Dr. Bailey would write more for FutureDerm! She has some great information, and she’s only written one post so far.
John Su
@casey
Your routine looks pretty great! I love that you’re so detailed haha! And no, the peel and L-ascorbic acid will not cancel each other out, though the pH of the peel is a bit too high. However, I’d say to just keep your routine as is since it looks fine. The two together may be a bit irritating for your skin. They can be used together, but there is the risk of unwanted irritation. Make sure to wait around 30 minutes after you apply the Glycolix, and before you apply the PCA skin sunscreen.
But other than that your routine looks good. The only thing I would recommend is for you to take out the Glycolix Cream at night-time and instead use something that contains a lot of niacinamide. The Glycolix Cream has some okay ingredients, but it’s packaged in a jar, which is never a good thing. See my list of niacinamide recommendation if you’d like an idea of what to use:
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/09/27/spotlight-on-vitamin-b3-niacinamide-and-nicotinic-acid/
Thanks so much for reading and commenting!
France
Thank you, John, for your response! It definitely does help a lot. And I will try to relax more
Annika
Dear John,
I have followed this site for a few months now and I am really impressed by the level of information and guidance you provide.
Impressed enough to totally have changed my skin care routine and have the Futurederm Retinol cream sent across the globe to Sweden where I happen to live.
I have always had poor skin which could be described as sensitive, dry and acne prone and in the recent years, starting to show lines and dark spots as well as some sagging.
My new routine includes a serum with c+e+ferulic acid for morning use and the Retinol cream for evening and now to my question. I have intended to combine these creams with my Strivectin SD cream (8% Nia) morning and night, is that a bad idea? Reading your post I get a bit worried. Must also tell you that I’m now suffering from some increased dryness but hope this will be a phase passing. If the Strivectin cream is alright for the evening, what would you recommend for the morning (would love something that includes sunblock as I’m now adding this separately).
Would be very greatful for your advice.
Best regards
Annika
John Su
@France
Phew, that relaxes me. Lol! And once again, you’re very welcome.
John Su
@Annika
I really appreciate your support! It means a lot.
And let us know how you like or dislike our retinol serum. I hope it works out for you.
But getting to your question:
It’s not a BAD thing to use L-ascorbic acid and niacinamide (and to a certain extent nicotinic acid; though it’s unknown how much of an extent; see other comments for more details) together because you will still be getting most of the benefits of both. However, it’s just BETTER to use them separately so there isn’t any negative interaction. So I’d say to keep using your Strivectin cream at nighttime after the retinol serum, and your CE Ferulic one during the day. When it comes to sunscreens, the ones I recommend can be found here:
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/09/13/are-inorganic-sunscreens-better-than-organic-ones-part-v-conclusion-and-product-recommendations/
Depending on your skin type and preferences, you’ll want to pick something from either the dry or oil categories. Apply that product around 30 minutes after the CE Ferulic serum.
But yeah, your routine looks fine. And while I think our retinol product is pretty good, you may want to see a dermatologist and asked to be put on a prescription retinoid, which are more potent and can affect more change than retinol.
I hope that helps, and let me know if you have any more questions! Best of luck.
Alina
Dear John,
How about Paula’s Choice new product – RESIST Pure Radiance Skin Brightening Treatment ? It has both Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate and Niacinamide. I am now quite confused about buying it or not. It wonders me why would they use these two ingredients together, taking into consideration they probably know the information you gave in this article.
Thanks
Alina
John Su
@Alina
I actually recommended this product a few times to various readers in this post, so I think it’s a pretty great product. I can’t comment on whether or not the PC team actually know about this information, but regardless of that, there won’t be any interaction in the bottle.
That’s because the interaction is only between L-ascorbic acid and niacinamide. Tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate does not interact with niacinamide, since the four palmitic acid fatty chains are occupying all the potentially sensitive “chemical sites” so to speak. TA only partially converts to L-ascorbic acid after it’s penetrated into the skin. Therefore, this complexation interaction may however occur inside the skin. But since this interaction is pH dependent, it will occur less than if L-ascorbic were used, since the pH of the skin is higher than 3.5.
Does that make sense? For additional information on this topic, read Sânziene si Mătrăgună’s first comment, and my response to it. It’s on the first page of comments.
And considering all the other beneficial ingredients in the PC Pure Radiance Treatment (N-acetyl glucosamine, mulberry, licorice, etc…) it’s a potent product that helps combat hyperpigmentation via different pathways. I gets a thumbs up from me. So definitely pick up some samples if you can.
kaye
wow i use the Dr. Dennis Gross Alpha Beta Daily Face Peel and Glycolix Elite Ultra Lite Facial Cream too!!
i apply the Alpha Beta Peel Pads first…..then wait for a couple of minutes….and then apply the Facial Cream. my concern was actually that the Facial Cream would prevent the Alpha Beta Peel from penetrating
the ingredients of the Facial Cream are:
Aloe Vera, Emulsifying Wax, Glycerin, Squalane, PPG-2 Myreth Propionate, Dimethicone, Superoxide Dismutase, Green Tea Extract, Phospholipids, Retinyl Palmitate, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Coenzyme Q10, Beeswax, Benzyl Alcohol, Carbomer, Triethanolamine, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea.
I was concerned that the glycerin and dimethicone would prevent the Alpha Beta Peel from penetrating the skin.
p.s. it’s so interesting going through these comments and see how a lot of your readers use similar products!!
John Su
@kaye
No, the glycerin and dimethicone will not prevent the hydroxy acids from penetrating because they are applied after the Dr. Gross Peel. So there is no risk of an occlusion-based reduction in efficacy. However, what will reduce the efficacy is actually the peel itself: it’s pH is a bit too high at 4.4, which won’t allow for meaningful exfoliation. The tightening and burning sensations that you’re feeling is from the alcohol and witch hazel contents, NOT from the hydroxy acids. And don’t even get me started on the Step 2 part. Its alkaline pH will neutralize the many potential beneficial ingredients, not to mention that it’s packaged in a jar.
And speaking of jars, the Glycolix one is packaged in a jar too, which is never a good thing.
It’s recommend for you to find replacements products. But just do the best that you can.
Thanks for reading and commenting!
Happy Halloween!
kaye
Thanks for the reply John! Happy Halloween to you too
Thanks for the recommendations, I really value your opinion.
I’ll keep the Glycolix Facial Cream as is for now.
But I’m thinking of taking out the Dr. Gross Peel and adding the new Paula’s Choice Resist BHA 9. I use futurederm retinol and just started 4% hydroquinone– I use them both at night.
So my morning would be cleanse, dr. gross peel, glycolix facial cream, sunscreen. I have acne that I’m trying to get rid of which is why I’m using the dr. gross peel. Benzoyl peroxide I’m using on and off too. But I’ve noticed that what really helps is keeping my pores exfoliated so I’m focusing on that.
Dr. Gross Peel is expensive and I have a feeling that it’s mainly salicylic acid that I need. Would you recommend using Paula’s Resist BHA 9 or even Paula’s Skin Perfecting 2% BHA instead of the Dr. Gross Peel? So then I would cleanse, apply BHA, wait a few minutes, apply Glycolix Facial Cream, wait 30 minutes, then apply sunscreen.
How’s that sound? I’m a little concerned the Glycolix Facial Cream would prevent the BHA from penetrating, but I’m told applying moisturizer within several minutes of cleansing is key. I want to incorporate moisturizer because using retinol, hydroquinone (for a limited time), and using BHA are all drying. And my Elta MD sunscreen is one that I love and I kind of refuse to buy a more moisturizing one
P.S. I read your story and routine on your blog. All I can say is WOW! You’re amazing!!
John Su
@kaye
The PC BHA 9 isn’t really supposed to be used all over the face on a daily basis. Think of it as a spot treatment alternative to benzoyl peroxide. But yes, I really like the 2% BHA Liquid; though it is a tad “oily” feeling. You may want to try the CLEAR 2% Regular Strength BHA. It’s more watery, though less effective.
I also addressed your concern about having to wait 30 minutes in my latest post:
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/11/01/common-misconceptions-of-skin-care-terminology/
So with that in mind, I think you should cleanse, apply the BHA, wait 30 minutes, then apply the glycolix and sunscreen. Does that make sense?
Thanks for reading my story and routine! However, that hasn’t been updated in a long time; both my story and routine. I’ll be adding to the story and coming out with an updated skin care routine (which I’ve already been using for the past few months) in the near future. So stay tuned if you’re interested!
Anya
Hi! I use Cosmetic Skin Solutions C+E Serum, followed by Paula’s Choice Moisture Boost Hydrating Treatment Cream, which has Niaminicide listed in the middle of the ingredients list. It also has a stabilized form of Vitamin C in it. Is it okay to use these products together (or only about 10 min apart) since the amount of Niaminicide in the PC product is relatively small? Thanks in advance for any info you can provide, and thanks for the great post!
John Su
@Anya
Yes, again while I would prefer if you used the two separately, you are correct that the amount of niacinamide present in the PC product is most likely negligible.
So if you’re satisfied with your routine, keep doing what you’re doing!
Lucas
Hi,
My question is a bit off topic, but it’s still about L-Ascorbic acid!
Vitamin C should be used with vitamin E to enhance its photo-protective properties, right?! But do they have to be on the same product/container? Or using one product with L-ascorbic acid and another one with vitamin E do just the same?
I’m asking because I’m thinking about trying a serum with 10% L-Ascorbic Acid (but it doesn’t have vitamin E) and my sunscreen already has 1% vitamin E, so would it add up once it’s on the skin and do the same think as if I used a product with both?
Thanks!
John Su
@Lucas
Well, they antioxidants will most likely have a greater synergistic effect if they’re in the same product, rather than in separate ones because the former helps ensure that the vitamin C and E are homogeneously mixed in order to allow for optimal “recharging” via reduction interactions. This reduction interaction is dependent on a variety of factors; its redox potential can be affected by things such as pH and concentration.
So while it would be best to use a product that contains both (and is properly formulated), you’ll still be getting some sort of beneficial interaction between the two antioxidants even if they come from two separate products. It is just unknown how small or large of a difference that would make on the overall level of protection when compared to if they were in a single well-formulated product.
Does that make sense?
My biggest recommendation is to relax. Don’t stress out over this rather small issue. As someone who’s answered many of your questions, I know that you’re taking excellent care of your skin. Is it really worth worrying about 90% vs 91%? It’s all about balance. As long as you’re taking care of your skin, eating right, exercising, not stressing out, sleeping right, etc… your skin will take care of itself!
I hope that helps.
Lucas
Yeah, I got it!
I guess it’s not a serious concern, but I was just curious really. I won’t worry about this.
Thanks again, John!
John Su
@Lucas
You’re welcome! Keep up the good work.
Confused Girl
An utterly fascinating post, albeit a little late for me. I just bought a serum with with MAP and niacinamide to use after a weekly home salicylic/lactic acid treatment (that I do at night).
What do you think of these ingredients applied at night:
Distilled water, sea kelp bioferment, sodium PCA, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, pomegrananate extract, natural active peptides, hyaluronic acid, l-carnosine, boswellia serrata, niacinamide, n-acteyl glucosamine, centella asiatica, horse chestnut extract, betulinic acid, green tea ECGC, epidermal growth factor BT, germaben II
Should I use it?
Also, my current am routine is to apply sunscreen and antioxidant serum, both containing vitamin C derivatives, then several hours later to wash it off with water and apply a retinyl acetate/niacinamide-containing moisturiser and then a 4% nicotinamide gel on top.
The sunscreen:
Zinc Oxide 19%
Inactive Ingredients:Aloe barbadensis (aloe vera gel), Water (purified), Camellia sinensis (Japanese green tea) leaf extract, Capric/caprylic triglycrides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Butyrospermum parkii (shea butter), Olea europeaea (olive) oil, Lecithin phospholipid, Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Simmondsia chinensis (jojoba) seed oil*, Squalane (olive), Panthenol (vitamin B5), Tocopherol (vitamin E), NaPCA, Rose moschata (rose hips) oil, Retinol (vitamin A), Centella asiatica (Gotu Kola), Copper gluconate, Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, Fucus vesiculosis (seaweed) extract, Allantoin, Sodium riboflavin phosophate, Chondrus crispus (Irish moss), Lavandula officinalis (lavender) essential oil, Anthemis nobilis (chamomile) flower essential oil, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract.
The antioxidant serum: pomegranate seed oil, rosehip seed oil, alpha-D-tocopherol, lycopene, tocotrienols, astaxanthanin, lutein, alpha lipoic acid, ascorbyl palmitate
If I’ve understood your post correctly, I wouldn’t have to worry about a pro-oxidative effect with the vitamin C derivatives, just reduced efficacy of both compounds. Or would both still occur?
Anyway, I’d really be interested in hearing your advice. Would you contine with this regimen?
I just wish someone would publish a book for laypeople detailing all of these sorts of interactions…
John Su
@Confused Girl
Your routine looks fine. As I’ve indicated in the post and the many responses to people in the comments section, the likelihood of a significant interaction occurring between vitamin C derivatives and niacinamide is very low. This is because the vitamin C derivative has to first convert to L-ascorbic acid inside the skin. And since this negative interaction occurs most often at a pH of 3.8, the skin’s pH is nowhere near that low. Also, the amounts of both ingredients present aren’t very high, especially for niacinamide in the nighttime product. You don’t have to worry about the daytime routine since both ingredients aren’t applied within a close time proximity.
Does that make sense? Keep up with your routine!
Also, in the Ideal Routine Page on my blog, I’ll be listing common interactions that people should be aware of! So stay tuned.
Trae
Hey John !
I have another question (sorry, I’ve been asking you a lot lately LOL -_^). I restructured my regimen back to an alternating night one, like I described in my comment on the article ‘Can You Really Use Retinoids with AHA, BHA, and L-Ascorbic Acid or Not?’ and have been using that for a couple of nights with really good results…but I think I may have run into a caveat :’(
By designing my regimen this way, it moves my L-ascorbic acid serum to every other night immediately after my leave-on glycolic acid product, and I employ a minimum 30-minute wait time afterwards (sometimes up to an hour) before applying the next product, and the last product I apply is usually a myristyl nicotinate product from NIA 24, so I’m not sure if that could interact with the L-ascorbic acid (the form I’m using is not technically niacinamide, but it *is* a form of B3, so it’s worrying me :-/). Additionally on the non-acid nights when I use retinol and GHK-Cu, I’ve always applied my NIA 24 product as well, but I’ve read another article on FutureDerm suggesting that it’s not a good idea to use retinol with nicotinic acid (which myristyl nicotinate converts to, if I understand correctly), though using my myristyl nicotinate product has never seemed to diminish the strength of my retinol product (I added in the NIA 24 in years after I’d begun using retinol).
Am I overthinking all of this or should I move more stuff around ?
Thanks in advance ! ^^,
Trae
Oops ! I just now looked at the previous page of comments and saw that Janine’s question was essentially the same as mine (my bad LOL ._.). Your response to her makes me feel a lot better about using these on the same night with a wait time in between. Thanks for all the work you do here and on your blog (articles + answering questions): it really makes a great collective reference when it comes to designing one’s skincare routine ^_^
John Su
@Trae
You are overthinking it! But I’d rather you do that than not think at all.
You don’t have to worry about using retinol with myristyl nicotinate bcause the skin slowly converts the former into nicotinic acid via esterase enzymes. The amount present in the skin at any one moment is most likely too small to influence the pH of the skin, even temporarily. Therefore, the optimal conversion of retinol to tretinoin, which is dependent on pH, will not be meaningfully affected. However, waiting between applications can’t hurt so you might as well if you can.
Your question is not quite the same as janine’s, since the interaction between niacinamide and L-ascorbic acid is a physical conformational change, while that of nicotinic acid and retinol involves pH ranges for optimal conversion. Still, I’m glad that my response to her made you feel better!
Trae
Thanks for the reply, John ^_^
That actually makes for a great generalized saying: overthinking > not thinking LOL.
I suspected that there might not be much of an issue with retinol and myristyl nicotinate because in the article that recommended against combining retinol and nicotinic acid, Nicki explicitly wrote ‘nicotinic acid’ and not ‘myristyl nicotinate’, but I get paranoid about these things, as you can see -_^
I found your response to Janine’s first comment reassuring with regards to the first part of my question where I mentioned that I’d moved my L-ascorbic acid serum to nights (after AHA), at the same ‘end’ of the day during which I apply my myristyl nicotinate product: in her first of two comments Janine mentions that she uses C E Ferulic serum before applying a NIA 24 product, which is similar to my use of an L-AA serum preceding myristyl nicotinate, which is why I found your response to that particular comment of hers to be comforting, particularly since I’m employing a wait time after the L-AA and not applying either when I’ll be exposed to UV. If future studies show that a similar issue exists between a nicotinic acid and ascorbic acid combination (to that which has already been demonstrated between niacinamide and ascorbic acid) I could always just use my myristyl nicotinate product only on nights that I don’t apply ascorbic acid — i e the ‘nonacid nights’.
Since we’re on the topic of overthinking things and my paranoia regarding product combinations, what’s your opinion on using a growth factor product like SkinMedica TNS Recovery Complex with acids like ascorbic or glycolic ? Skin Medica’s website suggests these products being used in regimens together, and Topix Pharm’s Citrix line includes an anhydrous ascorbic acid product that also contains epidermal growth factor in the same product…what was concerning me was the idea that proteins (how I’ve seen derms describe TNS — as ‘containing proteins’) could be denatured by acids, but info I could find on denaturation states that it tends to occur mostly with strong acids and bases, which glycolic and ascorbic acid are not, if I remember correctly (I only had to take a couple of semesters of chem undergrad, and that was several years ago, so I definitely could be wrong -_^). Since I’ve never seen TNS Recovery Complex turn cloudy (or any other sign I usually think of with protein denaturation) when applied over AHA and ascorbic acid after a 30 minute wait time, I’m not too worried about it, but it’d still be nice to get a definitive answer LOL.
Thanks again for the reply and for quelling my fears regarding these pesky ingredient combinations -_^
John Su
@Trae
You always write such comprehensive responses. Nice work!
Yeah, nicotinic acid is never applied to the skin so its discussion is pretty much irrelevant; another thing that I don’t agree with the post. But anyways!
As for the growth factors question, my biggest concern isn’t whether or not weak acids such as glycolic acid can denature these proteins, which they can depending on how much of the hydroxy acid product is applied, how much hydroxy acid is present, and how low the pH of the product is.
My biggest concern is if these growth factors can actually be delivered into the skin in efficacious amounts, since most growth factors are massive in size (TGF Beta-1, which is what the Citrix product contains has a molecular weight of 25,000 daltons; most ingredients without a delivery system have to be less than 500 daltons to penetrate the stratum cornenum; not to mention solubility, polarity, etc), is the inclusion of these growth factors in skin care a good thing?
I actually responded to a reader on my blog about this topic. Please see the comment by Robyn and my response to her in this post: http://thetriplehelixian.com/2012/11/22/part-iii-retinol-metabolism-contd-why-retinol-can-never-replace-tretinoin/
Let me know what you think about that, and as always, you’re very welcome!
Chloe
Hi John,
Sorry to write a bit of off topic, but I find my skin gets red and sensitive to L-Ascorbic Acid. I tries a bunch of different companies and all of L-Ascorbic Acid serum irritates my skin. Nikky and you both seem to like L-Ascorbic Acid effect on the skin. Is there any second best form or vitamin C I can try out?
Thanks!!!!
Chloe
John Su
@Chloe
Well L-Ascorbic Acid can certainly be irritating, with its low pH. If you can tolerate it, consider using a vitamin C derivative. Look for high concentrations of the forms tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) or magnesium ascorbyl phosphate. Sodium ascorbyl phosphate is okay too!
Chloe
You are a SUPER STAR!!! Thank you so much! When you get a chance, it will be amazing if you did an article about different forms of Vitamin C with product recommendations. : ) I googled around but only found two products below. Do you have any recommendations please???
Medik8 CE-Tetra — Simmondsia Chinensis Oil, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Cyclopentasiloxane, Cyclohexasiloxane, PPG-12/SMDI Copolymer, Tocopherol Acetate. Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate 7%, Tocopherol Acetate (d-alpha vitamin E) PPG-12/SMDI Copolymer (PP- 2)
Perricone MD Cold Plasma — Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Phosphatidylcholine, Isopropyl Palmitate, L-Tyrosine, Butylene Glycol, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Oligopeptide-17, Ceteareth-20, Magnesium Aspartate, Zinc Gluconate, Dimethyl MEA (DMAE), Docosahexaenoic Acid, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Phenoxyethanol, Dimethicone, Caprylyl Glycol, Glycolic Acid, Retinyl Palmitate, Saccaromyces Ferment, Elaeis Guineensis (Palm) Oil, Carbomer, Disodium EDTA, Tocotrienols, Copper Gluconate, Polysorbate 20, Sorbic Acid, Tocopherol, Sodium Hyaluronate, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Astaxanthin, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-3)
John Su
@Chloe
Hm, I don’t like the first product because very, VERY few people have used it before. Plus, the manufacturer doesn’t release any relevant data. One aspect to consider is how reputable a manufacturer or company is. I wouldn’t recommending buying from some small company that no one’s heard of. But that’s just me.
The second product is packaged in a jar… so that’s out of the question.
Try using Beautypedia and type in the vitamin C derivatives that I mentioned before into the search bar. Then you can narrow/organize by rating, type of product, etc… It’s not a perfect tool, but it is very useful. Then read the ingredient list of products that you’re interested in and make sure that the vitamin C derivatives are relatively close to the top. We can then go from there!
Marla
What about using a moisturizer, like CeraVe PM (which lists niacinamide as its fourth ingredient) on a nightly basis after using a topical 2.5% benzoyl peroxide gel to treat acne? If BP is an oxidizing agent, would that present a compatibility problem with niacinamide? I had read that most of the BP is absorbed by the skin in the first 30 minutes, so would you recommend waiting over 30 minutes before applying moisturizer over skin that has had BP 2.5% applied to it? Thanks.
Chloe
Thanks John. I was spending sometime last few days looking at products and found below. Which one you think will suit me best? (my skin type: asian, minor hyperpigmentation, somewhat sensitive, dry)
Dermalogica ChromaWhite TRx C-12 Concentrate
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/dermalogica-chromawhite-t-p_10507.htm
Dermalogica Age Smart MAP-15 Regenerator
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/dermalogica-age-smart-map-p_8958.htm
Paula’s Choice RESIST Super Antioxidant Concentrate Serum (you use this reading your blog?)
http://www.paulaschoice.com/shop/skin-care-categories/antioxidants/_/RESIST-Super-Antioxidant-Concentrate-Serum/
OLE HENRIKSEN Truth Serum® Collagen Booster (This one has citrus and I wonder that won’t be so good to use under the sun?)
http://www.sephora.com/truth-serum-collagen-booster-P42343?skuId=965681
Thanks again!
John Su
@Marla
I haven’t heard that you shouldn’t use niacinamide with benzoyl peroxide. Niacinamide is one of the more stable topical ingredients, and shouldn’t be affected by the mild oxidative prowess of benzoyl peroxide.
However, if you’d like to wait 30 minutes before application time, that’d be fine too. But not because its absoprtion time is 30 minutes, since that will vary from person to person, and formulation to formulation.
John Su
@Chloe
The peptide in the first product does not have any proof, so there’s no point of using it.
The second product is very good, but way too expensive since the bottle only contains 0.3 oz.
The third product is very good, but I actually haven’t used it for months. I have been using a vastly different routine and have yet to update it online.
The fourth product is also good, though calcium ascorbate most likely won’t convert to L-ascorbic acid. The inclusion of some potentially irritating essential oils may make it inappropriate, but you can definitely give it a try! If you do use it during day, do use a good sunscreen after.
Linda
Hi John, I’m starting to think you’re the consummate expert on skin! Even though this comment may be off topic from the article, it’s in line with the direction some of the comments have taken. I alternate CE Ferulic with CRS 15% during the day, topped with one of your approved sunscreens and I alternate Retin A micro with Glytone cream 20% 3 ph (thick cream in a jar) every night sometimes throwing in a little DDF Glycolic toner from time to time (just not before Retin A). I just lost faith in the Glytone now that you have shared that you believe a jar is not good for glycolic if it’s not used quickly. The Glytone lasts forever. I researched your articles further and read your full series on AHA’s and found that liquids and gels and a low ph are good when using glycolics. The glycolics you recommend are much lower % than what I have carefully worked up to with the 20% Glytone. I tolerate it fine now and don’t want to drop down the % since I can tolerate it. Since you don’t like open jars and creams as much, do you have a glycolic that you like better that’s at a higher %? Is the Glytone a waste? I don’t feel I need to have a multi tasking glycolic product (like some of your recommendations) since I seem to have my bases covered in the antioxidant/sunscreen/retin A arena. I also never know how or when to throw a moisurizer into this mix. These skincare products are so expensive when you add it all up that it’s important to do our research!
Thanks in advance for anything you have time to share!
John Su
@Linda
I’m super flattered!
Well, I don’t like any product that’s packaged in a jar. However, the chief reason why is because it allows air to degrade any air-sensitive ingredients such as antioxidants, etc. However, hydroxy acids tend to be decently stable when exposed to air. Would I prefer that HA products be packaged in tubes and pump bottles? Yes, but really, a jar won’t significantly alter the efficacy of the glycolic acid content. So that’s good news: you can stick with the Glytone Step 3 cream! I mean, you obviously have had good results with it.
But if you’d like some options, have you tried either the Glytone Step 3 Lotion or the Body Lotion? They both contain 17.5% GA in lighter bases; and they’re packaged correctly. You may want to give those a try.
Linda
Thanks again, John! Quick response, I’m sure your responses and further clarification in the comments section help others with their research like they do me! I’ll be buying the Glytone Step 3 Lotion next, for sure! Best to you. I have cancelled all my email blog subscriptions because it’s just too much to follow, however, I just signed up for email alerts on your own personal blog htttp://thetriplehelixian.com/ which is a salute to you! What an amazing and generous resource you are…..:)
Simona (Sânziene şi Mătrăgună)
@ chloe , @John
About the Medik8 CE Tetra serum – why wouldn’t it be a good choice? I love tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate, it is at 7% (max usage rate), it has a penetration enhancer.. Of course that for the same price some other very nice oils could have been included there…
My night oily serum is a kind of a replica of this one, 7% tetra, 7% dicaprylyl carbonate (as penetration enhancer), 1%d-alpha tocopherols,1% bisabolol, 1% Q10 (at 3% dilution in squalane) – and for the rest of the oils I get creative
John Su
@Linda
Wow, I’m so flattered! Thank you for the support. I hope to never disappoint you guys.
John Su
@Simona (Sânziene şi Mătrăgună)
Well, the main reason why I didn’t say it was very good was because there was such a lack of personal reviews and the existence of a mild packaging issue. However, I stand corrected by the manufacturers, and there will be a very, VERY exciting event happening soon on this blog.
I can’t say much yet, but stay tuned!
AJ
Hi John,
Love your posts!
Now, I’m confused….I recently read one of Nikki’s earlier posts where she recommends the Skinceuticals C+E+Ferulic as well as the NIA 24 Sun Damage Prev. Mineral Sunscreen. However, then I saw your post about not using niacinamide with Vit C, so I’m a little concerned. I know this NIA24 has nicotinate, so is it ok or could it still have the same issues with being “rendered useless”?
Of course, I don’t want to use these together & waste $$ or cause any bad reactions with my skin.
Also,while I’m at it….I use Image Skincare’s (natural) lightening serum (PM only). It’s main ingredients are rumex, kojic acid, green tea, vitamin c (low on the list) and other natural ingredients. Would it be redundant to use this at night for “lightening/brightening”, then the NIA24 SPF during the day? I don’t know if I can really over “brighten”, but again don’t want to aggravate my skin. I have minor sunspots and a few acne spots (that take months to go away), which is why i’ve started using the lightening serum. I’m 45, live in the high desert & am diligent with my SPF, but am always looking for something new that may add add’l prevention. I’ve used Dermalogica’s Agemart Dynamic Skin Recovery (w/spf) for a couple years and need a change… I’m told I don’t look my age and want to keep it that way!
Thanks so much,
A
John Su
@AJ
Thanks for reading!
Yes, it’s fine to use myristyl nicotinate with L-ascorbic acid and tocopherol. The interaction explained in this article only occurs with niacinamide. On a side note however, I wouldn’t personally recommend using that particular Nia24 sunscreen since I don’t believe it provides enough protection against UVA1 rays. But’s it’s better than nothing.
As for the Image serum, I can’t seem to find a complete ingredients list so I can’t really tell you my opinion of it. However, I can tell you that you can’t “over-brighten” the skin. This is just a buzzword generated by marketing teams. In fact, if you’re dealing with hyperpigmentation, it’s best to treat it with multiple types of lightening ingredients that work via different mechanism in order to compound the overall effect. So long as you’re not seeing signs of irritation, you’re not aggravating your skin by simply using many lightening ingredients,
Does that all make sense?
AJ
Thanks for the quick response! Yes, makes total sense. I have other excellent
SPF’s I should just stick with. I live at a high altitude, so SPF is so
important.
The Image website usual has full ingredient lists w/each product. Maybe that’s
I LOVE their Vital-C line & also MAX. Their price points are very reasonable. (You can find them on Amazon, but they’re not supposed to be sold on Amazon, so whose knows who does & how. It’s about the same cost as what I pay retail so I trust my esthetician & know I’m still getting quality product.)
changed. http://www.imageskincare.com/ It’s a neat line I started using a year ago & not as widely marketed/sold as some of the others. They don’t allow it to be sold online or in retail stores like Sephora, ULTA, etc. I think this protects the integrity of the products, although they’re harder to get. Check it out. It would be interesting to see what you all
think, as skincare review experts.
Thanks so much!
John Su
@AJ
I’m sure you know this but a high SPF and a high level of UVA (-PF) protection are both necessary!
As for the Image website, when I mean full ingredients lists, I mean ones that list ALL the ingredients including the vehicular ingredients and is in descending order of concentration; not just the important or featured ingredients. That way I can better estimate how much of a particular ingredient is in a product. Also, I don’t think the reason they don’t sell in department stores is because of integrity, or at least not true integrity, as there are plenty of excellent products sold there. Perhaps they want to spread the “image” that their products are better as they are available exclusively from a estheticians, which of course is not true. But that’s all speculation.
Regardless, full ingredients lists are necessary. But still, it’s great that you like the brand and enjoy the results their poducts give. I just prefer recommending and using products that are available to everyone (or at least to a larger audience), bcause it’s more practical.
I hope to see more of your comments in future posts.
AJ
All agreed! Thanks again John! I look forward to your future, great informative articles!
John Su
@AJ
Great thanks!
Lucas
Hi, John.
My question is a bit off topic. I was wondering if it’s possible to formulate a product with niacinamide and glycolic acid, so that they are both effective.
Thank you!
Ann
This is such a great article! I am glad that I stumbled on this web site.
I am wondering if Azelaic Acid such as Finacea can be used at the same time with a moisturizer containing Niacinamide. I have been using Olay Regenerist Regenerating Serum, which contains Niacinmide as a moisturizer. Niacinmide helps with my sensitive skin tremendously.
After reading this article, I am wondering if there’s going to be any ill effect of using Finacea and Niacinmide at the same time.
Thank you!
John Su
@Lucas
Nope, that’s impossible as far as I know, at least if you were to compare the effects of that combination to those when using the two separately. Combining the two will always perfom less optimally.
John Su
@Ann
Thanks! I’m glad to have you.
Well, the pH of Finacea (~ 4.8) is higher than that of most hydroxy acid products, which are usually between 2.5-4.0. And since the minimum non-enzymatic hydrolysis of niacinamide occurs at a pH of between 4.0 and 6.0, it should be fine to niacinamide with Finacea. So keep doing what you’re doing!
You may want to check out this post for more information: http://www.futurederm.com/2013/01/24/should-niacinamide-and-acidic-ingredients-be-used-together/